THE JESUS PUZZLE
Was There No Historical Jesus?
Earl Doherty



Responses to Critiques of the Mythicist Case

One:
Bernard Muller
(with contributions from Richard Carrier and others)


PART THREE
Romans 1:3 and Hebrews revisited; Galatians 4:4's "born of woman"
  plus a bit of Josephus and "brother of the Lord"


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


The third and final part of my response to Bernard Muller revisits topics covered in previous parts and deals as well with several new areas. Muller's critique of The Jesus Puzzle can be found in two parts at:
http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/djp1.html  and  http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/djp2.html

Muller digressed from his assault on The Jesus Puzzle to address Carrier's own review of my book. By now, the abysmal nature of Muller's critique should be evident to the reader. But it will get worse. As Carrier writes: "...Muller only makes himself look like he doesn't know what he is talking about. Probably because he doesn't." Of course, anyone has the right to publish whatever criticism of my work he or she sees fit, and most of those criticisms are by apologetic-minded individuals whose confessional (or professional) interests are threatened. But Muller is one of a minority of critics for whom confessional interest plays no part. To date I have ignored him, but it is surprising how much attention his critique of The Jesus Puzzle has gained, and how many have been drawn into thinking that he has dealt a severe or mortal blow to the mythicist case, mine in particular. They say that a little learning is a dangerous thing, and so is a lot of ignorance. With enough ignorance, as Muller has demonstrated, one can criticize with an unlimited degree of unperturbed self-confidence. (This makes him particularly frustrating to deal with on discussion forums, as myself and others can attest to.) The unfortunate side effect is that those who are equally ignorant can be taken in, especially when it serves their own interests to be so. The manhandling of Muller by myself and Carrier (who is anything but a committed mythicist) is not motivated by ad hominem impulses; but if there is ever going to be a serious and professional consideration of the mythicist option, we have to neutralize and rid ourselves of the truly amateur, uninformed
and often transparently apologeticvoices clamoring to beat down the heretical notion that no Jesus existed. Ignorance tends to be their hallmark, and that hallmark extends even into the realms of academia, as another article on this website has shown. As incompetent as Muller's critique is, it unfortunately has to be dealt with.

Again, I will be quoting much of Muller's and Carrier's texts, as well as from postings on IIDB. I will mark hiatuses, and the odd insertion of my own will be in italics in square brackets. (Muller's text, with color scheme preserved, will be indented, while quotes from Carrier and the others will be in red, also indented. A separate Addendum will link to a review reprinted here of Muller's critique originally posted on IIDB.)

Critiquing Richard Carrier's Review of The Jesus Puzzle

Because Carrier, in his review of The Jesus Puzzle, supported me in my picture of upper and lower worlds and the activity of gods in the heavenly realms, Muller felt obliged to try to discredit Carrier's own reading of ancient cosmology, particularly where gods like Osiris are concerned.

Richard Carrier commented that in Plutarch's Isis and Osiris (written around 90-100), "it is there, in the "outermost areas" (the "outermost part of matter"), that evil has particular dominion, and where Osiris is continually dismembered and reassembled (375a-b)."
Let's check about these outermost areas and where Osiris was dismembered:
- "[s.38] The outmost parts of the land beside the mountains and bordering on the sea the Egyptians call Nephthys. ... Whenever, then, the Nile overflows and with abounding waters spreads far away to those who dwell in the outermost regions ..."
....
It looks to me the outermost areas are regions around Egypt, called Nephthys, and the remains of Osiris are dispersed in Egypt.

Muller needs to actually read the whole book. Plutarch, first, gives several different schemes (historical, metaphysical, etc.) and explicitly distinguishes them as different, not the same thinghe even says the metaphysical is the correct one. Second, Plutarch clearly discusses the use of terms like Nephthys as allegorical. If Muller had actually read the text, he would know that Nephthys is not foremost a placeshe is a goddess. She represents Finality and Victory (355f). Thus she can be attached allegorically to all sorts of things. The attachment of her name to the Outlands is one allegoryhence also the earth is called Isis and the air Horus and aspects of the Nile Osiris...Thus, Plutarch is not talking here about the heavenly Osiris, where he says he and Isis are intermediary gods between heaven and earth. Again, Plutarch relates several *different* interpretations of the myth. Muller seems to think they are all the same one. Only someone who did not read the whole book would make that mistake....

a) Plutarch never used the expression "sublunar heaven", nor did he mention any world/heaven below the moon and above the earth:
"[s.63] that part of the world which undergoes reproduction and destruction is contained underneath the orb of the moon, and all things in it are subjected to motion and to change through the four elements: fire, earth, water, and air."
This part of the world is just like earth and the air above it!
....
The ancients (as Aristotle and Ptolemy) thought the moon was the most outward (in the earth direction) celestial body. The sun was understood in an orbit beyond the one of the moon, among the planets moving between the moon and the firmament. And the "fixed" stars were on the firmament in front (or part) of "the prime mover sphere". In any case, the firmament was considered behind the moon and therefore not sublunar.

Muller is really confused here. The sublunar heaven is the firmament, which is indeed a part of everything below the moon...At any rate, his criticism is completely irrelevant to my actual point: that Osiris dies and rises in the aer. That it happens "often" means it cannot be a historical person Plutarch is talking about....

d) For Plutarch, the final resting place of Osiris is below the polluted earth, and not into the heavens:
"[s.78] ... this god Osiris is the ruler and king of the dead, nor is he any other than the god that among the Greeks is called Hades and Pluto. But since it is not understood in with manner this is true, it greatly disturbs the majority of people who suspect that the holy and sacred Osiris truly dwells in the earth and beneath the earth, where are hidden away the bodies of those that are believed to have reached their end. But he himself is far removed from the earth [downward!], uncontaminated and unpolluted and pure from all matter that is subject to destruction and death ..."

Oh dear no! Plutarch is chastising the "majority of people" for believing the wrong thing! Go back and read the context. Thus, he is not saying that Osiris is really far belowbut far above! He is saying that the people are *wrongly* disturbed by the idea he is below. Indeed, he could not say in one place that everything below the moon is subject to decay, and then say that below the earth everything is "uncontaminated and unpolluted and pure from all matter that is subject to destruction and death"! That would be a direct self-contradiction. *Only* the heavens ever qualify for the latter description (without exception in ancient literature). Further, the verb "far removed" means set apart fromso it cannot mean *in* the earth (and Plutarch certainly believed earth was a sphere, so anything below earth is literally *inside* earth).

The following discussion of bodies and souls also exactly matches that of the Axiochus and of Philo, and thus clearly repeats the Middle-Platonic view of two levels of the cosmos (which I will note again: ALL SCHOLARS OF ANCIENT COSMOLOGY AGREE IS A FACT)....

e) Plutarch is however very much confusing when handling different concepts & traditions, some of them mythical, and lacks consistency through his rather incoherent narration.

I suggest that Muller has misplaced the "confusion" and "incoherence." It belongs a little closer to home.

2.9. Conclusion:
I do admire Earl's rhetorical skills but I rely on the evidence first. And from ancient pagan writings before Julian's times (331-363), there is no testimony presented in 'the Jesus Puzzle' about the concept of an upper world between heaven & earth, where the fleshy meets demonic powers, a place where Jesus would have been crucified. After years of research, Doherty was unable to flesh out the evidence for it....Furthermore, all the texts cited by Doherty (and Carrier) were not written before Paul's times.Why would the early Christians imagine an upper world as more real & pungent than their earthly one?

With these remarks, Muller demonstrates the full extent of his ignorance, and his basic reliance on the argument from personal incredulity. He himself cannot imagine such a view of an upper world, and he is so uninformed about Middle Platonic philosophyindeed, the central philosophy of the entire erathat he does not realize that this is precisely the way the ancients viewed the spiritual versus the earthly parts of their universe. The upper world was indeed "more real and pungent" than the one they moved in, as divorced from reality as that may have been. Incidentally, though the outlook is not the same (since cosmological views of the universe are now much different and our scientific knowledge vastly superior), Muller overlooks a close parallel among modern believers. We might ask the question, how can today's Christiansand religious believers generallyimagine an upper world (Heaven) more primary, important and eternal than the world they experience in their earthly lives, the only lives we can be certain of? There is no more concrete evidence today for the existence of Heaven than the ancients had for their own view of a layered world of the spirit above the earth. In both cases, it has been entirely the product of the mind. In ancient times, philosophers had very little else to go on but their own intellects, and unfortunately, they brought too many unsubstantiated assumptions and cockeyed axioms to the exercise of those intellects. Today, we ought to know better.

Muller's remarks do not deserve the polite explanation Carrier provides, as though anyone who purports to study the rise of Christianity and its philosophical context in contemporary culture should need to have such an answer provided. At this particular point, we are first and foremost concerned not with whether Paul or any other early Christian placed Jesus' death in the upper world, but rather with the most basic outlook on reality that had been developing for centuries before Paul came along. Without knowledge of the latter, we can never arrive at an accurate judgment of the former. As Carrier puts it:

This is explained by Middle Platonic (and Jewish) writers: this world was subject to change, decay, chaos, and seemed to cause all manner of evil: God is good and created everything; therefore there must be a superior, perfect world not subject to change, decay, chaos, and evil; and that must be the heavens (the only thing left, and the only thing that seems not subject to change, decay, chaos or evilbesides, elevation is a universal human notion of superiority: no culture has ever imagined a "better" world below the earth, all have imagined it *above*).

One can see how unsubstantiated axioms so misled the ancient intellect. Change, decay (which is really a step in the ongoing course of evolution and 'rebirth') was axiomatically judged as inferior and undesirable. If an all-high God existed (and few could conceive otherwise) he must be impervious to such things and transcendent from them. Then the universe had to be structured to give him a place to live, intermediaries between himself and the world had to be established, explanations for the world's evil and its separation from the imagined perfection of the spiritual realm invented, until a vast and unwieldy superstructure was erected which few philosophers could free themselves from, none of which bore any relation to reality. Out of that milieu grew Christianity, and it is only with a knowledge of that cosmology that Christianity can be understood (as well as evaluated). Muller asks:

Why did Paul never state Jesus' death in an upper world/lower heaven?
Why did he never specify the crucifixion was not on earth, more so when many were crucified there?

Actually, Paul did state it, in an indirect way. If the crucifixion had been on earth, if the event was remembered by people still alive, some of whom had been Jesus' followers with whom Paul was still in contact, why would Paul state that Jesus' death was a matter of faith? In 1 Thessalonians 4:14, he says: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again..." The place of crucifixion in Colossians 2:15 looks like demon territory. In Romans 10:9, he says: "If you believe that God raised (Jesus) from the dead..." Why is there an appeal to faith here? Couldn't Paul draw on the witness of many that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead? In 1 Corinthians 15:12-15, he rhetorically allows for the possibility that Jesus was not raised if the human dead are not raised, and that they have all been deceived by God. This sounds like a gospel message dependent solely on revelation from God himself. The so-called "appearances" in 1 Corinthians 15:5-7 look like visions, both in their language and because of Paul's inclusion of his own vision in the list without any differentiation (he does the same in 9:1). Paul never points to historical facts or traditions to justify faith in Jesus' dying and rising, nor for describing anything else about his divine Son of God, including the manner and agency of his crucifixion (the "rulers of this age" of 1 Corinthians 2:8). If there is such a void on historical time, place and agents in regard to Jesus' redeeming act, where else can he place this 'event' except outside earth and history?

Carrier presents a little different twist on Paul's silence:

If his audience already knew, why would he say? After all, he only ever writes to people who had already been orally evangelized. Thus, most of the fundamentals of doctrine were already in place.

But those "fundamentals" were in place on a much broader scale than any earlier evangelizing by Paul. They were virtually a given in the philosophical and religious atmosphere of the time. The deaths of the Hellenistic savior gods took place not on earth or in history; they inhabited mythical settings. Philosophers had already created the upper dimension where divine intermediaries revealed and rescued. Paul did not need to explain to his prospective converts that Jesus had died in the spiritual world. Nor would anyone likely have questioned it. It was part of the natural order of things, and no more needed or invited explanation than did the concept of animal sacrifice to God and the gods as practiced in Jewish and pagan religion. Nowhere in the Old or New Testament does anyone explain how blood sacrifice operates to do what it supposedly did, not even in the epistle to the Hebrews where these processes are stated but not justified or elucidated. Today, do evangelists and preachers explain the "soul" to their audiences, despite referring to it ad nauseum?

As Carrier points out, Paul, when faced with the Corinthians' doubt about human resurrection, does engage (1 Corinthians
15:35-54) "in an elaborate explanation of how there are two worlds, one of decay one of indecay, the former was earth and the latter heaven, and the resurrected get bodies in the latter." This, however, is not to explain the principle of upper and lower worlds or the place of Jesus' activity, but to convince the Corinthians that the process is feasible, no doubt because they could not envision their own rotted and disintegrated corpses rematerializing to new life. Paul addresses their doubt by conceding that flesh and blood are indeed incapable of entering the kingdom of Heaven, but that humans will be converted into new, spiritual bodies. What Carrier and most others fail to recognize in this passage is that, while the prototype for this new body is Christ's own, the latter is identified from start to finish as a spiritual body, resident of heaven, made of heavenly material, with a total silence on it ever having been other than such, on it ever having progressed from physical to spiritualdespite the universal reading of such a progression into the background. It cannot be there because that feature would not only contradict what Paul actually says, it would ruin the whole picture and structure of Paul's argument. Carrier, in fact, falls into that universal trap by reading such a thing into Paul's words: "...and the resurrected get bodies in the latter [heaven]...as Jesus must have, too." I recommend a reading of my Supplementary Article No. 8: Christ as "Man": Does Paul Speak of Jesus as an Historical Person?

Carrier goes on to say:

Since no one ever seems to have doubted the death of Jesus (even the Corinthian faction did not deny that *Jesus* had been resurrected, only that we would be), there was never an occasion for Paul to elaborate on where Jesus died (as we can suppose Paul would have if he had to prove Jesus had diedas it is, he simply says it is proven by scripture, as if his audience already agrees).

I must disagree with most of this. As I have pointed out, more than one passage indicates that "faith" is required to accept both the death and resurrection of Jesus, and there is evidence in 1 Corinthians that indeed some Corinthians denied that (the spiritual) Jesus had even been crucified. The issue between the factions at Corinth which Paul is addressing in the first four chapters is focused on the fact of "Christ crucified," the conflict between Paul's gospel (the wisdom of God) and that of his rivals (the wisdom of the world). I have argued that we must see Apollos at Corinth as included in that latter group, meaning that there were Christian missionaries who denied the fact of Jesus' death, and apparently preached him only as a Revealer Christ, saving through knowledge which confers perfection and present 'resurrection.' See my Supplementary Article No. 1: Apollos of Alexandria and the Early Christian Apostolate.

Carrier is somewhat contradictory in his final statement above. If there was no necessity to demonstrate that Jesus had died, presumably because everyone knew and accepted it, why would Paul even bother to "prove it by scripture"? What is the significance of his "kata tas graphas" in 1 Corinthians 15:3 and 4? The standard interpretation is that he is saying Jesus' death and rising fulfilled scripture, but this is an idea he develops nowhere else, despite his fixation on the sacred writings. I have suggested that the phrase means "according to the scriptures" in the sense of scripture telling us these 'facts'. Thus, scripture is the source of Paul's information about the Christ, not historical tradition. In fact, Paul declares in Galatians 1:11-12 that he got his gospel solely through revelation. That is why faith is needed for believers to accept both the death and the rising.

And because of the flimsy substantiation of "Doherty's world" in all of the ancient literature (four centuries of it!), wouldn't that raise a major (controversial!) issue after being learned from Paul (or others) as where Jesus suffered the cross & died (and out of sight from humans!)? Of course it would! Then why don't we observe the apostle dealing with it in his epistles, where he just did that with many others?

Both Carrier and myself have demonstrated that the substantiation of "Doherty's world" is anything but flimsy in ancient literature. If it was a given in the background of most religious thought of the time, for Paul to provide some statement or explanation of it would have been superfluous. With that in mind, we might consider the significance of Ignatius' repeated insistence on the 'fact' that Jesus had been born of Mary and crucified by Pontius Pilate. If these were well-known facts in the background (and how could they not be?), what reason would Ignatius have had for insisting on them? How could some Christian missionaries be going about not preaching such a Christ, as he says? The answer is that Ignatius was not stating long-known historical details but rather new developments in the evolution of the mythical Christ into the historical Jesus, and not everyone agreed with it. (I have argued elsewhere that Ignatius cannot simply be countering docetic doctrines about an historical Jesus.)

For me, Doherty's theory crashes to the ground right there, because of lack of external testimonies about the mythical lower heaven and the silences of Paul (& 'Hebrews') about it. Actually, and looking only at Paul's (seven) authentic epistles (both Earl & myself agree on those) and 'Hebrews', the evidence is much stronger towards earth and Zion (Jerusalem) than for the firmament or that mysterious "world".

Competent historians read documents in context: that means, understanding what Paul and his readers would have taken for granted. The fact that demons resided in the aer is one of those factsas again: ALL SCHOLARS WHO STUDY THIS SUBJECT AGREE.

Now, it is correct that this does not prove Doherty's case. Even though Paul surely believed in a firmament and aer that resides between earth and the moon (the border of the 1st heaven), and surely believed demons lived there, it does not follow that this is where he imagined the passion as taking place...

No, but it sure helps. Without that knowledge of Paul's "sure" beliefs, we haven't a chance of properly interpreting passages like 1 Corinthians 2:8.

...That is only *consistent* with what Paul sayswhich Doherty is right to note is a bit curious: you would think Paul would have said something more concrete about the life and times of Jesus. Surely, his congregations would be asking him things about the real Jesus all the time, so there is indeed a problem for historicists to explain why none of his letters ever answer any such questions or even hint at their existence. Now, one might come up with theories to explain this. But those theories will all be at least as ad hoc as anything in Doherty's thesis. Two ad hoc theories? I see no way to decide between them.

What makes an "ad hoc theory"? Technically, what makes something "ad hoc" is a specific relationship to the purpose for which the 'ad hoc' thing has been formulated, and it is sometimes given the derogatory implication of being slanted to serve that purpose, that it only has application in regard to the specific end in mind. When we use it in this field, it is often implied that each 'ad hoc' explanation is isolated, a kind of desperate measure to come up with some explanation, that each one doesn't form a good fit or a good combination with other ad hoc explanations on other points. I don't know if Carrier has all this negative implication in mind here, but let's assume he does (it certainly fits his stated situation regarding historicist explanations of Paul's silence). Is my theory ad hoc? Are its elements lacking consistency and good fit between themselves? Carrier constantly emphasizes the fact that my evidence is *consistent* with my theory but doesn't thereby prove it, and I'll of course agree to that. But this very consistency speaks volumes. When each explanation of a passage or problem inherent in the record enjoys consistency and agreement with all the others, when each makes good sense while those of the other side make less so (as Carrier implies by his use of descriptives like "strange" and "bizarre"), when together they form a logical paradigm that covers every aspect of the evidence, whereas the other side's picture does not (giving me the "win" in the Argument to the Best Explanation, as Carrier has admitted), then we are definitely not dealing with two equally weak "ad hoc" theories, between which there is no basis on which to make any kind of choice. And in fact, Carrier goes on to offer a limited acknowledgement:

And Doherty is right that his theory is less ad hoc here. Unlike the "heavenly scheme" Doherty theorizes, which would be a *foundational* doctrine and thus *certainly* already explained to Paul's congregations from day one [much earlier than that if it was a part of their religious and philosophical culture] and thus have no cause to appear in his letters, debates and natural human curiosity about a *historical* Jesus would not be foundational at all, but would constantly arise out of the blue and have to be dealt with....What Doherty finds curious is that if Jesus died on earth, this would entail that all sorts of biographical and verbal facts about him would *certainly* come up in debates over Church doctrine *and* in natural human curiosity about the greatest man that ever lived. So it is indeed bizarre that neither ever came up, in a way that it is not bizarre that the location of Jesus' death never came up, if it took place in heavensince that would already be a settled matter of foundational doctrine.

With this kind of admission, one wonders why Carrier is so reticent and guarded in his evaluation of the relative strength of the respective cases, or why he is so insistent on agnostic neutrality.

But on to Muller's Part Two.

Jesus and David: Romans 1:3

In chapter 8, on pages 82-84, Doherty works on Romans1:1-4:
Ro1:1-4 Darby "Paul, bondman of Jesus Christ, [a] called apostle, separated to [set apart for] God's glad tidings, (which he had before promised by his prophets in holy writings,) concerning his Son (come of David's seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to [the] Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of [the] dead) Jesus Christ our Lord;"

Then Earl writes: "Is it a piece of historical information? If so, it is the only one Paul ever give us, for no other feature of Jesus' human incarnation appears in his letter."
Shock!!! I'll answer that later ...

Then Doherty actually does not address the issue of a human Jesus straight on, but drifts away from it by questioning the meaning of "God's gospel" --not one from Jesus-- (I agree with that), the historicity of 'Son of David', the origin of 'Son of God' and finally by introducing his concept of the fleshy lower heaven. Nothing much is related to the "incarnation"; only some "explanation" is thrown against it, such as:
"... for scripture was full of predictions that the Messiah would be descended from David. In reading these, Paul would have applied them to his own version of the Christ, the Christ who is a spiritual entity, not a human one."
So now human ancestry was assigned to Jesus by Paul, even if the later (allegedly) thought Christ was never an earthly man! Does that make sense? Of course not. If angel Gabriel is thought to be a spiritual entity, you do not make him a descendant of Moses!
Furthermore, Earl's argumentation is dependant on Paul being the first one to claim Christ's ancestry from David. Is is realistic?
According to the Pauline letters, there were many other apostles/preachers (1Co1:12,9:2-5; 2Co11:5,13,23a,12:11; Php1:14-17; Gal1:6-7), some "in Christ" before Paul (Ro16:7), some preaching different 'Jesus' (2Co11:4), and all of them Jew (2Co11:22-23a): in this context, what are the odds on Paul making this "discovery"?

This is so disjointedly presented, full of confusion and misreadings, it is very difficult to respond. So I'll match Muller's approach and make several points haphazardly. No one would claim that the angel Gabriel is descended from Moses, not because the idea is supposedly ludicrous, but because nowhere in scripture is this suggested. And who said Paul was the first to draw the conclusion that Jesus was descended from David? How is my argument dependent upon this? There are some scholars who think Paul may even be quoting a piece of hymnic liturgy here. It matters not whether this idea was original to Paul (though it may be), just that he believed scripture indicated that his Christ bore some relationship to David. Since scripture does indeed make such a connection, and since prevailing philosophy regarded the upper world as containing parallels to all things earthly, this is hardly "throwing an explanation at it." Muller also misapplies the idea of parallels in the heavenly world. No one is saying that Paul regarded the spiritual Christ as a descendant of the earthly David, or that this descendancy was literal in the earthly sense, only that in some way, in the workings of the higher, "real" and "primary" world, some relationship existed which scripture revealed. Carrier calls for some explication on my part of the meaning of Davidic descent in Paul's mind, but I don't know how he thought about it. When I read something like the 5th Oration by Julian, I understand the words and the philosophic principles involved, but the ideas are so alien to my own outlook on the universe, it is difficult to comprehend how Julian's own mind could accept and understand them. Thus, I am not in a position to say (and I suspect none of us are) how Paul specifically understood his scripture-based idea that the divine Christ he believed in was related to David. (I have also pointed out previously that since such an idea was based on the Jewish scriptures, we cannot expect to find a similar idea reflected in pagan writings about their savior gods, even if we did possess more of such writings.)

Michael Turton on the Internet Infidels discussion forum "Biblical History and Criticism" had this to say about Muller's above paragraph:

The opening paragraph of Bernard's analysis contains not a single argument against Doherty, it is merely a heap of rhetoric, using words like "drifts" and "obsessively" to evoke emotional rather than rational responses in the reader, or conclusory rhetoric "Does that make sense? Of course not!" as if this were an argument. Unfortunately, Bernard does not tell us here why this does not make sense.

Turton goes on in regard to:

Is there nothing else about a human Jesus in 'Romans'? Of course not, but all of the ensuing verses from 'Romans' are ignored in Doherty's book:
A) Ro15:12 Darby "And again, Esaias says, There shall be the root of Jesse [David's father], and one [Christ, according to Paul] that arises, to rule over [the] nations: in him shall [the] nations hopes."
Here Jesus' alleged descendance from David is reiterated.
B) Ro8:3 Darby "... God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin ..."
Don't we have a clear expression for incarnation? See here for an explanation on "likeness".
C) Ro9:4-5a YLT "Israelites, ... whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ..."
Here Jesus is from Israelites, "according to the flesh". Who else are Israelites? Paul, according to Ro11:1, quoted later, and also many of his contemporaries, by flesh:
Ro9:3b-4a NASB "... my brethren, my kinsmen [Paul's] according to the flesh, who are Israelites ..." Did Paul think himself and his brethren/kinsmen lived "in the sphere of the flesh", some upper world above earth? NO!

Bernard's arguments here contain only misunderstandings and misinterpretations. First, he claims "....all of the ensuing verses from 'Romans' are ignored in Doherty's book." Bernard clearly does not understand Doherty's point. If the first reference to Jesus being of David's stock (in Romans 1) can be shown to be symbolic, then all subsequent references to it are similarly symbolic. Thus, simply piling on more quotes, as Bernard does here, will not make Doherty's arguments disappear. Bernard must come up with compelling reasons to reject them, either on linguistic or content grounds. In any case, Doherty spends several pages in several places discussing the problem of Jesus' alleged Davidic ancestry (82-85, for example). Finally, there is a telling Doherty-style silence here. If Jesus had really been born of David, Paul, after all, knew his brother, James. All Paul had to do was cite his personal knowledge of the family of Jesus and firmly link Jesus to the mortal sphere. But no, Paul's ideas come from divine revelation. Doherty has a very strong argument here, and Bernard's rhetoric cannot dismantle it.

Bernard then goes on to say: "B) Ro8:3 Darby '... God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin ...' Don't we have a clear expression of incarnation here?" Merely asking this question does not refute Doherty's point. Bernard would have to demonstrate that the word likeness here means something other than what it very plainly says. All Bernard does here is use an emotional appeal to invite the reader to fall back on the biases built in by 2000 years of historicist exegesis. He does not make an argument based on logic, content, linguistics, or history anywhere in these remarks.

More often than not, Muller simply settles for drawing the most ludicrous parallel he can come up with and then by ridiculing it, thinks he has discredited my position. First of all, kata sarka is one of the most recurring phrases in the Pauline corpus, with all manner of meaning. (Muller has already been called to task for assigning the same meaning in all circumstances to some particular word or phrase with variant application.) No one would claim that its usage in Romans 9:3 in regard to Paul's own kinfolk signifies "in the sphere of the flesh" or is identical to its usage in Romans 1:3, no matter what the latter's meaning. In fact, if Muller had bothered to think a little longer about this particular verse and consult a number of translations, he might have concluded why Paul inserted it here. If all Paul was concerned with was making a reference to his fellow Jews, he would have had no need to insert kata sarka at all. Why did he do so? Probably for clarification. Once he used "brothers" to refer to those of his own race, perhaps he felt the need to make it clear he was not referring to Christian "brothers" in the sense of fellow believers, and so he added "my kinsmen according to the flesh." If Muller had consulted the NEB, or the NIV, or the RSV, or the (often useful) Translator's New Testament, he would have found translations like "my natural kinsfolk," "those of my own race," "my kinsmen by race," and "my own flesh and blood," all translations which reflect their recognition of what Paul meant by kata sarka on this occasion.

If one looks carefully at the following verses here (9:4-5), which Muller and others regularly appeal to, one finds that the words actually fall far short of saying that Christ is of "human descent" in regard to his "human ancestry," the sort of phrases which regularly appear in translations. In fact, Christ is simply tacked on at the end of a long list of things that are the 'property' of the people of
Israel, things that belong to them, such as the covenant, the Law and the promises. The phrase is literally, "...and from whom [the Israelites] the Christ according to the flesh." Our ubiquitous, vague, stereotyped phrase, kata sarka. Not even here could Paul speak more clearly and more normally about actual "human descent." Upon such an oddity, Muller, and just about everyone else, has truly "thrown an explanation," governed by the Gospels. In regard to Christ "belonging" to the people of Israel, I am often challenged for saying that the savior gods could be accorded an ethnic identity. Muller says "I am not aware of any." Carrier asks for examples. But they are making too much of my remark. On some level, Osiris was identified as Egyptian. Gods such as Dionysos and Attis were given close associations with their peoples of origin, especially in the initial stages of their cults. It would not be unusual for Paul to regard his savior figure, growing to some extent out of the Jewish tradition, as identifiable with that racial group. Such a viewpoint could well be operating in regard to his "born under the Law" in Galatians 4:4.

In the crucial matter of the meaning of Romans 1:1-4, Muller has the following to say, and Carrier responds:

Doherty postulates "from the seed of David" is part of "God's gospel" (drawn from the scriptures by Paul, as Earl contends). This seems to be largely due to his (inaccurate) translation:
"the gospel concerning his Son who arose from the seed of David ..." (Ro1:3)
That's partly from the RSV, but the Greek does NOT have "the gospel" and "who "(&"arose" is Earl's own translation)!

The Greek most definitely *does* have those words. The subject of the clause in 1:3 is the "Gospel" of 1:1. Anyone who reads Greek would know that. Likewise, the Greek says "tou huious autou tou genomenou," literally, "the son, his, the one (i.e. son) who came to be." It is perfectly legitimate to translate "his son, the one who" as "his son, who"this is called the definite article in the attributive position, and the meaning is identical.

As for "arose," that is a valid translation of genomenos, which is a very ambiguous word with wide scope in its possible meanings. It literally means "become" but connotes any of the following with equal frequency: "be / is" or "happen / take place" or "arise / come about" or "be born / be created / come into being" or "show up / be present." Doherty's choice is not contentious.

However [quoting Muller]: "The digression starting by 'come of David's seed...' is linked to 'his Son' and not likely to 'God's glad tidings'." That is certainly correct. But I am not aware of Doherty saying such a thing. Doherty is saying that the whole unit "his son come from David's seed" is part of the content of the Gospel. That is certainly correct on the Greek. So I don't fathom Muller's point here.

To conclude, it is highly improbable Paul meant he just found "come of David's seed" from the scriptures (and had to divulge it!), as Doherty contends.

I couldn't disagree more. The Greek is unmistakable: the Gospel (1:1) is what was presaged in the OT (1:2) and the content of that Gospel is described in the whole of 1:3-4 (and probably also as the basis for 1:5-6). That's what the Greek says. Period. This also has strong support elsewhere (cf. Rom. 16:25-26; Eph. 3; one sees a hint in 2 Cor. 3:12-18 to 4:4; etc.)...It is in fact *probable* that Paul meant he found the content of the Gospel in the OT. Of course, historicists don't dispute thatthey all agree that the entire content of the Gospel was presaged in the OT.

I've reproduced the Muller-Carrier exchange here at some length because it should help clarify things for many who make claims similar to Muller's, that Paul simply doesn't mean what he clearly seems to say, and which Carrier agrees he does say. But Carrier is nevertheless fuzzy on a couple of points. First of all, his statement about "historicists" is hardly accurate, and contains a contradiction. I'm certainly not aware of all historicists (which presumably includes New Testament scholars) agreeing that Paul found the content of his gospel in the Old Testament. In fact, they are usually at pains to claim that he "received" it from previous apostles, those who had known the historical Jesus. They hardly agree that the kata tas graphas of 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 conforms to my own suggested meaning, that scripture was the source of Paul's doctrines about the Christ rather than a prophecy of them. Carrier reverts to the universal interpretation of things when he says that they agree the content of Paul's gospel was "presaged" in scripture, but this is not the same thing as deriving the gospel from it. Now, if all Carrier means by 'found the content in the OT' is that it was presaged there, this is hardly contentious and doesn't serve to support me against Muller. Carrier also misses the huge anomaly I have pointed out in regard to this passage, that if information about Paul's gospel of the Son were 'pre-announced' in scripture, this would be a pre-announcement of Jesus himself, his life and saving acts. But Paul makes no such connection. Scripture forecast the gospel, nothing else. He imposes no human man between the content or prophecy of scripture and his own derivation of the gospel from that scripture, leading to the conclusion that he knew of no historical Jesus. Of course, he does this sort of thing all through his letters, and so do the writers who came after him, forging epistles in his name. (The best example is in Titus 1:3.)

And Doherty keeps obsessively interpreting anything as concerning an entirely mythical Jesus: again for him, "according to the flesh" becomes "in the sphere of the flesh", with the "sphere" being "the lowest heavenly sphere, associated with the material world"! The translation as "in the sphere of the flesh" is according to Doherty "a suggestion put forward by C. K. Barrett." He adds "Such a translation is, in fact, quite useful and possibly accurate." No doubt! Doherty is treating that "possibly accurate" "suggestion" from "a translation" as if it were a piece of primary evidence.

Carrier says that he agrees, but both are getting a little carried away. In all discussions of the possible translation of kata sarka, I present Barrett's suggestion as simply making possible my interpretation, as an "explanatory fit" with my theory. But that's all I need. I am hardly claiming to prove my case by thinking to show that this is the only possible translation. People like Muller lose sight of the fact that so much of the argument commonly made against me (and of course he does this himself) is based on assorted claims that this-or-that cannot possibly mean such-and-such, or allow such-and-such an interpretation. (It's like the creationist claiming that life could not possibly have evolved in the primeval soup without divine direction.) All I have to do is demonstrate that it could (which in the matter of evolution, scientists have), that such-and-such a meaning is possible, either by demonstrating it technically (as Carrier has frequently done for me) or by appealing to a respected scholar who himself allows for such a meaning, even if he doesn't draw my conclusions from that meaning.

But Doherty does not stop here. He contends "according to the spirit" can also be translated as "in the sphere of the "spirit"" (and from NO "suggestion" by anyone else!).

I'm sure he could find someoneand I wish he would....For myself, Doherty's translation is plausible on the Greek and is implied by Paul's discussion in 1 Cor. 15, which uses abstract nouns to refer to the realm of the spiritual body as the realm of indecay, glory, immortality, etc., and he distinguishes flesh vs. spirit as between earth and heaven. So Paul would certainly have *understood* the idea of being in the realm of spirit vs. the realm of flesh.

Before commenting, I'll reproduce what Muller says following shortly on his previous remark:

But what did Barrett mean by "sphere" in that context? Here it is:
"The preposition here rendered 'in the sphere of' could also be rendered 'according to,' and 'according to the flesh' is a common Pauline phrase; in this verse, however, Paul does not mean that on a fleshly (human) judgment Jesus was a descendant of David, but that in the realm denoted by the word flesh (humanity) he was truly a descendant of David." C. K. Barrett, The Epistle to the Romans, page 78.
Barrett never meant a fleshy heaven, in any context. Not even close!

Of course Barrett didn't mean by his translation that Christ was a descendant of David in a fleshly heaven. I never claimed he did. I was simply making use of Barrett's translation in my own context, and there's nothing illegitimate in that. But it's curious that Muller makes a very selective quotation of Barrett's text from his Romans commentary. Barrett provides his translation of both passages in question immediately preceding Muller's quote:

"in the sphere of the flesh, born of the family of David;
in the sphere of the Holy Spirit, appointed Son of God."

I wonder that Muller overlooked this preceding sentence (set apart and in bold print from the rest of the text) when he claimed that I have used "in the sphere of the spirit" with "NO suggestion from anyone else". (Incidentally, the passage from Barrett's text is found on page 20, not page 78 as Muller has it.)

But let's not stop there. Naturally, Barrett regards 1:3 as referring to Jesus' descent-from-David status as a man, not as a heavenly being. And what does he envision for verse 4? He says (p.20),

" 'In the sphere of the Holy Spirit he was appointed Son of God.' This translation is not universally accepted. For 'in the sphere of' see above [referring to the earlier part of his text discussed above]. 'The Holy Spirit' is literally 'spirit of holiness', and this has been taken to refer not to the Holy Spirit, but to Jesus' own (human) spirit, marked as it was by the attribute of holiness."

Clearly, Barrett does not accept this common understanding, since it would not be compatible with his 'in the sphere of' translation, and he goes on to discuss the point without an abundance of clarity (p.20-21). In fact, what exactly is Barrett's specific understanding of his "in the sphere of the Holy Spirit" is not all that clear either. He has failed to see that the meaning, the location, entailed in his phrase "in the sphere of the spirit" should be determined by the actions attached to it: namely, Jesus being declared Son of God in power (by/as a result of the resurrection of the deadpresumably his resurrection, although the actual words cryptically say "by a resurrection of dead persons"). More importantly, that meaning should also be determined by the overall implication in the passage (1-4), that these actions by Christ are to be found in (derived from) scripture, as Paul tells us. Thus the assumption ought not to be that the ambiguous "spirit" reference can somehow apply to an earthly Jesus or an earthly context, but rather should be seen as located in heaven, in the realm/sphere of the spirit. And scripture ought to be surveyed to find exactly what passage may have produced this idea. As far as I know, no one before myself (and certainly not Barrett, who gets bogged down in the question of whether this couplet of verse 3-4 is pre-Pauline and whether it had an anti-adoptionist agenda) has suggested that the whole of verse 4 has simply been derived from Psalm 2:7-8:

"I will tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to me, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession...' "

Here, surely, is Romans 1:4's designation of Jesus as Son of God, plus the "in power," which is extended to having the Son receive lordship over all in earth and heaven following his death and resurrection, a common idea in the epistles (e.g., Phil. 2:10-11). With this convenient and rather obvious scriptural source for verse 4, taken in conjunction with the statement in verse 2 that Paul's gospel was to be found in scripture itself, there is no impediment, and a lot of persuasive reason, to interpret verse 4 as a heavenly event, which would make the "in the spirit" a reference to a location, a "sphere," namely heaven, and not some attribute of Christ.

All of which makes it very likely that verse 3 conforms to the same scriptural context as everything else, namely that the Son's relationship to David is also something derived from scripture, and has no more historical import than verse 4.

I think enough has been said in this area. Since Muller's text is so disorganized, any further attempt at a response may well bring a case of fatigue upon both writer and reader, so I will pass over the remainder of Muller's and Carrier's discussion in regard to Romans, and move on to Galatians 4, with its "born of woman."

Born of Woman

Muller's argument in this section is particularly disjointed, shifting forward and back through chapters 3 and 4 of Galatians. I will try to rearrange it into some semblance of order.

3.2.3. By examining the whole of Galatians3:15-4:7, can we figure out what kind of woman Paul was thinking for Gal4:4?
Paul started by making a claim: "But to Abraham were the promises addressed, and to his seed: he does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ."(3:16 Darby)
That seems to refer to Genesis17-22 but it is never specified here according to Paul's words. Anyway, the promise is about inheritance (3:18) for all (Gentiles and Jews --3:28-29,3:8,14) but the former is supplanted by the Law "until the seed [Christ] came ['erchomai', clear expression of the first coming!] to whom the promise was made" (3:16,19). Then everyone would be liberated from the Law by Christ (3:22-24,3:13) and "the promise, on the principle of faith of Jesus Christ, should be given to those that believe." (3:22), allowing Paul's Galatians to be God's sons & heirs and honorary seeds of Abraham (3:29,4:7,3:7).

Paul's reasoning, his exegesis of scripture, in chapters 3 and 4 of Galatians probably reflects the most convoluted thinking and argumentation in all of his letters. But his purpose should be clear. He needs a way to assign God's "promise" to Abraham to his gentile readers, his converts in Galatia. After all, centuries of Jewish mythology clearly assigned that promise to the Jews themselves, as descendants of Abraham. Paul's Galatian converts were not Jews. How, then, to make them (and gentile Christians in general) the genuine recipients of that promise? He does this by reinterpreting the idea of Abraham's "seed" (sperma). Because the word in scripture (passim, in Genesis) was singular, Paul claims it refers to a singular individual (3:16). He identifies that individual as Christ. Now, this is more than a bit absurd, in that the content of God's promises to Abraham would hardly be applicable to Jesus Christ as one human individual, let alone as the divine Son of God. And while the "seed" in Genesis is certainly in the singular, it is a collective singular; indeed, "seeds" could never be used in the plural in such a context, as it would make no sense. A person's descendants are collectively referred to in the singular when using the "seed" terminology. So Paul is blatantly reaching here, and no amount of 'spinning' by New Testament commentators can make it seem sensible or acceptable.

The object of Paul's sleight of hand becomes clear by the end of chapter 3. Through faith, his readers, and all who have been baptized into Christ, have become "sons of God" and have "put on Christ" (3:27). They are all "one in Christ Jesus" (3:28). To drive the conclusion home, he says: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Christ interpreted as Abraham's (singular) "seed" has served the purpose of providing a link between Abraham and those who Paul claims are the true heirs of the promise to Abraham, namely Christians. This, of course, is in keeping with the central claim of the Christian sect, continuing to this day, that God rejected the Jews and transferred his favor onto believers in Christ.

Thus Paul's sight is fixed upon Christians. It is they who are the "seed" and they who have "come" and inherited the promise made to Abraham. The "seed" as Christ is simply a stepping-stone. Thus Muller's claim that we can tease out an historical Jesus in Paul's mind from all of this is falling into the trap that Paul's very self-serving exegesis has left behind. Let's see how we can avoid the pieces of that trap. First of all, what is it that has "come" in the present time, as Paul presents it? Follow this succession of verses (using The Translator's New Testament):

19. Why then was the Law necessary at all? It was introduced to show what transgressions are, but it was to last only until the 'seed' should come to whom the promise had been directly made....
23. Before faith came we were held imprisoned under law until the faith which was to come should be revealed. 24. And so the Law has been like a guardian escorting us to Christ, that we might be made right with God through faith; 25. but now that faith has come we are no longer under a guardian.

In verses 23 and 25, what has "come" in the present time is faith, faith in Christ Jesus. It is not Jesus who has come. No historical figure is inserted between the centuries-old Law and the coming of faith. Verse 24 makes that sequence clear: the Law as a precursor leads not to Christ himself as an historical man, but to faith in Christ; Law is followed bysupplanted byrevelation, and faith in that revelation. This is the pattern constantly repeated throughout Paul's epistles, from Romans 1 on. If Paul still has "Christ" in mind in verse 19 as his definition of the "seed," it is only as a symbol, a link to those inheritors of the promise, the true seed he is so at pains to create, namely those who have been baptized into Christ (v.27). Paul has made it clear elsewhere that he regards the baptized believer as part of the body of Christ, and this mystical concept serves to join Christ and the body of believers into the collective "seed" he speaks of throughout this chapter. There is thus no way for us to separate those two wedded elements in Paul's mind and declare exactly what he has in mind as "coming" in verse 19. In any case, we can take any thought of Christ "coming" in the same way that it is presented throughout the New Testament epistles, namely as a spiritual figure that has been "revealed" in the present time, through scripture and the Holy Spirit.

Verse 22 says this: "But scripture has established that everything is imprisoned by sin so that the promise, based on faith in Jesus Christ, might be given only to those who have faith." Here, Paul can no longer sustain the charade that the object, the recipient, of the promiseas he manipulated it in 3:16is Christ himself. Rather, the promise falls on the Christian, through faith in Christ. The link to Christ is symbolic and mystical. There is nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with a recent human man who was himself the supposed "seed" of Abraham and recipient of the promise. Throughout this entire passage, Paul spends not a word in describing or enlarging upon the recent earthly activities of Christ as "seed" of Abraham, the one who had supposedly played such a role in salvation history, thus making Muller's declaration here simply a reading of the Gospel background into the thought of the epistle:

What remains is for the Son/Christ to come as the seed of Abraham, that is as a Jew and earthly human (as other seeds of Abraham, like Paul, as previously discussed), in order to enable the promise.

In fact, Paul's silence is an almost outright exclusion. If a Jesus on earth had been the principal agent of transition between the Law and the new system of salvation, Paul could hardly have failed to provide some hint of such an idea in his elaborate exegesis in this chapter, some reflection of the earthly career of Abraham's "seed." And note Paul's somewhat cryptic contrast in verses 19 to 20:

"19. ...[the Law] was transmitted by angels and by the hand of an intermediary. 20. Now where only one party is acting there is no need for an intermediary. And God is one."

The elements of this passage have most commentators scratching their heads, and interpretations have been legion. But even though the reference in verse 20 seems to relate most directly to the event of God making his promise to Abraham, it comes in the larger context of the transition from the old to the new, from the Law to salvation in Christ as fulfillment of that promise. How can Paul leave this anomalous idea hanging in the air? Where is the intermediary Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, preaching in his own person the new salvation, preaching himself as the channel to that salvation? If Paul highlights the giving of the Law as something done by God through intermediaries, through angels and (apparently) Moses, if he implies a contrast of quality between the Law and the promise based on one using intermediaries and the other not, how can he do this without taking into account the idea of Jesus on earth being God's own intermediary in the giving of the Law's replacement and the fulfilling of the promise? Paul's contrast here would certainly be compromised. Yet clearly, there is no problem for Paul. It is faith in Christ that has supplanted the Law, and this faith has come not through any historical intermediary but by revelation, directly from God; all of it is fully in keeping with the contrast Paul has expressed between the Law and the promise.

In regard to Muller's comments on Christ as the "seed" of Abraham, and the "coming" of that seed (3:16-19), Michael Turton on IIDB had this to say:

Bernard takes this passage to say the verb 'come' here implies a first coming on earth. Nowhere is that present in this passage. The whole discussion is an abstract discussion of the Law and Christ. "Came" here simply represents the appearance of Jesus in our reality, not necessarily on earth. If Paul had meant come on earth, he would have said it. Bernard is simply back-reading the story of the Gospels into Paul, invoking his and the reader's unconscious assumptions -- the ones Doherty wants you to give up -- in interpreting these passages. Pulling a whole history on earth out of a single verb is the ultimate in historicist desperation....

Here I think Bernard goes badly wrong. In Gal 3:16 he has misread the last sentence. It does not say Christ is of Abraham's seed. Rather it says (to expand it properly): "And to thy seed; [a promise] which is Christ." In other words, read in context, it does not say that Christ is of Abraham's seed. It says that Christ is the fulfillment of a promise to Abraham's seed. Bernard has erred again (on the same point) and thus, his argument falls to pieces.

Now, this is actually a very interesting take on 3:16. While I'm not quite ready to commit to it, such an interpretation would get Paul out of an awkward exegetical jam. Grammatically, it could work, and since the close association in Paul's mind and argument between Christ and believers linked to him makes them both equally the personification of the "seed" of Abraham, we could so interpret Paul's thought behind the words. Paul has stressed the "coming of faith" and the appearance, if you will, of those who believe in Christ, an entity revealed only now by apostles like himself. In that sense, then, Christ has clearly "come" in the present time. We need see no thought of a coming by Christ in the flesh in recent history.

3.2.1. Doherty on Galatians4:4
Gal4:4 YLT "... God sent forth His Son, come ['ginomai'] of a woman, come under the law"
In chapter 12, page 123-125, Doherty comments on "born of woman" from Gal4:4. He admits this passage "most suggests that he [Paul] has a human Jesus in mind."
But then he goes to work, starting by "God sent his own Son", but "forget" to take in account Ro8:3 Darby "... God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin ..." (the "sent" Son is not a spirit, as Earl argues (p.123) (& why would a woman be needed for the Son to "become" a spirit)! See also here for an explanation on "likeness")!
His convoluted argumentation does not disprove anything and looks rather like a series of red herrings. He is trying to raise doubts by way of speculative suppositions, using expressions "this can be taken", "seem", "not necessarily tied", "do not have to be seen" & "one interpretation that could be given" in order to counteract the obvious.
And any writing/myth known during Paul's time is considered a likely inspiration, such as Isa7:14 and Dionysos' birth, as if no man were born of woman in antiquity!

If I had used expressions which were more definite, rather than these "speculative suppositions," I would no doubt have been accused of making firm declarations based on little or weak evidence. The point in dealing with passages like Galatians 4:4 is not to "prove" that they have meanings entirely in keeping with the mythicist position, but that they can enjoy alternate interpretations and do not have to be seen as conforming to traditional readings.
It is the fact that something has for so long been regarded as "obvious" which is what must be counteracted. The language I use in arguing such passages, and which Muller so disdainfully dismisses, is the proper approach.  (The question of "likeness" in regard to other passages has been discussed in my Part Two of this response.)

Before focusing in on the central passage of Galatians 4:4-7, let's see how Muller brings in a later passage, the "allegory" of 4:21-31.

3.2.2. Comments on Richard Carrier's review on Doherty's book about Galatians4:4
Richard wrote: "I am surprised he doesn't point out the most important support for his position: the fact that Paul actually says in the same letter that one woman he is talking about is allegorical, representing the "heavenly" Jerusalem, not an actual woman (Gal. 4:23-31)."
Carrier is correct into mentioning the allegorical woman in Gal4:26-27 (even if 'woman' is never spelled out!), but the whole passage (Gal4:24-27) is presented as an allegory. It is only here that Paul used the word-root 'allegoreo' (allegory) and also 'sustoicheo' (correspond) in all his epistles. Therefore he indicated the ensuing verses should not to be taken literally, including the "our mother" in 4:26 (the heavenly Jerusalem) and the "her" in 4:27 (as a quote from Isa54:1, where she is Jerusalem). In any case, Paul was clear about not referring to a real human female here. He did not even employ the word 'woman'!
And he never said the woman in Gal4:4 stands for the heavenly Jerusalem! Furthermore, all other women in Paul's letters are earthly ones, including the two right after Gal4:4, the biblical Hagar and Sarah (not named but identified as the "freewoman") (Gal4:21-25).

Confusion abounds here, and to some extent I think Carrier shares in it. Muller's argument is designed to counter Carrier's 'support' of my position by pointing out an essential difference between Paul's reference to a "woman" in 4:4, and his reference to two women (not just one) in 4:21f. This difference is allegedly that in the latter case, Paul specifically declares such women to be allegorical, whereas he makes no such declaration in regard to the woman of 4:4; by this, he seeks to disqualify Carrier's suggestion that the allegory of 4:21f supports my meaning of 4:4. Actually, I neither see nor claim a significant connection between the two. The confusion is based on an equating of "allegorical" with "mythical," which is not the same thing, even if they may be said to share some common applications. Paul does not declare the woman of 4:4 to be allegorical because there is no allegory involved. She doesn't "represent" anything, no more than him saying in Romans 1:3 that the Son is "of David's seed" has an allegorical meaning. Christ of the seed of David doesn't "represent" anything either. It is a factum about the Son regarding his nature in the spiritual dimension, derived from scripture; just as, I maintain (and will discuss shortly), Christ could have been declared "born of woman, born under the law" under the influence of scripture probably Isaiah 7:14and for other philosophical necessities.

Having said this, I will agree that a general form of "support" may be derived from the allegory passage, in the sense that all of Paul's imagery throughout these chapters is concerned with symbolic relationships, not history let alone historical individuals, and all of it is designed to further his purpose here, namely to identify his Christian (and largely gentile) readers with the proper seed of Abraham and set them apart from traditional interpretations so as to make them the true inheritors of God's promise. (Verses 28-29 and 31 return like a kind of summation to the theme that Paul's readers are the children of the promise.) It follows that we should see his reference to Christ "born of woman" as also furthering that purpose.

Muller declares that all other woman in Paul's letters are earthly ones, including the two in the Galatians allegory, which is simply falling once again into the trap of making all variable usages of a term conform to a single definition. Besides, the "woman" in Galatians 4:4 is not given a name, and she is not identified with any character (literary or otherwise) whom Paul can be shown to have known. The "woman" of 4:4 is simply generic. She is there to serve the overall purpose, to characterize the "son" in a certain way as part of Paul's argument. The question is, what is that characterization, and can he have achieved it by assigning Christ to a woman in a mythological sense, based on an application of scripture?

It has often been pointed out that there seems little reason why Paul should have bothered in Galatians 4:4 to specify Christ as "born of woman." Why would such an obvious 'fact' need stating? To some extent, it's a valid question, but it needs to be answered in the context of the passage. That passage runs, using the NEB translation:

"3. ...During our minority we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe, 4. but when the term was completed [lit., when the fullness of time came], God sent his own Son, born of (a) woman, born under (the) law, to purchase freedom for the subjects of the law, 5. in order that we might attain the status of sons. 6. To prove that you are sons, God has sent into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, crying 'Abba! Father!' 7. You are therefore no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then also by God's own act an heir."

There are a lot of pitfalls in this passage, buried mines which make it treacherous to simply charge ahead, as people like Muller do, declaring that it can all mean only one thing. It is, as I have admitted and as Muller throws back at me, the passage in all the epistles which most seems to suggest that Paul has a human Jesus in mind, but it is by no means that straightforward. Earlier in this response to Muller, I discussed at some length the idea of paradigmatic parallel, the foundation of so much of the soteriological thinking of the time. Just as the savior god or heavenly champion was thought of as representing or experiencing things in common with those he was linked to, thus guaranteeing common beneficial results such as resurrection and exaltation, the idea of being "born of woman" can be seen as part of that commonality. So could "born under (the) law" (the definite article does not appear in the Greek, though it may be understood). Paul's purpose in making this statement would be to strengthen the paradigmatic parallel: as Jesus took on our nature, our 'slavery' under the law, he is best placed to achieve our freedom from it. But is it an earthly, human nature and slavery he has taken on? Or is this simply part of the mythological picture painted throughout the epistles, and indeed throughout the entire salvation thinking of the era? Is it a "taking on" in that pattern of "likeness" we find emphasized in both Christian/Jewish and pagan writings where savior deities are concerned? Muller is at pains to dismiss my interpretation of "likeness," but it is not so easily got rid of. It is repeatedly emphasized in places where it should be unnecessary, misleading or redundant, as in the 'descending' half of the Philippians christological hymn, or Romans 8:3, or the Ascension of Isaiah 9. The entire concept of descending redeemers (recurring in gnostic texts) is dependent on them receiving 'bodies' and performing/suffering things that are human-like but not specifically physical and historical. Savior god mythology casts them in the likeness of human experiences which (according to Plutarch) belong to the mythical and spiritual realm, not the earthly historical sphere. The paradigmatic parallel
as for example between the Righteous One/Messiah Son of Man in heaven and the righteous on earth in the Similitudes of Enochis based on the relationship between heaven and earth, between spiritual and earthly manifestations. There is no impediment to interpreting Galatians 4:4 in the same vein.

If a good argument can be made to see the "of David's seed" in Romans 1:3 as something mythological, as derived from scripture, if the descending-ascending redeemer of the Philippians hymn can be seen as conforming to gnostic mythology about non-human savior figures (as in The Apocalypse of Adam and The Apocryphon of John), then Galatians 4:4 should be no tougher a nut to crack. Paul affirms Jesus' issuance from woman and slavery to the law because it serves his soteriological picture; it further links Christ with those who are made sons and given freedom from the law. It is another piece of his overall argument in these chapters designed to make his readers the object and inheritors of the promise, through Christ. Consider the earlier verse 3:13. "Christ bought us freedom from the curse of the law by becoming for our sake an accursed thing; for Scripture says, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree'." If the mythicist argument can make a good case for regarding such a 'hanging' as a mythical/spiritual event (as it has in regard to passages like 1 Corinthians 2:8, Colossians 2:15, the Ascension of Isaiah 9:14, and even Hebrews with its sacrifice in heaven), if it can point to scripture as the source of belief in such an event, (as in 1 Peter 2:22 and 1 Clement 16 and certain statements in the epistle of Barnabas, as well as Paul's own statements concerning "tas graphas" and God himself as the source of his gospel about the Christ), then Christ being "born of woman" is no further a reach. If Christ in a mythical context can take on a cursed nature, he can take on genesis 'from woman.' If Paul regards him as taking on this cursed nature as part of Christ's assumption of paradigmatic features to facilitate the process of salvation, he can regard him as taking on genesis from woman for the same purpose, especially when he has scripture telling him so in both cases.

One critic claimed: "The Jewish law is binding on the descendants of Abraham. It does not apply to angels or demons or divine effluences. If Jesus was born under the law, then Jesus was born into a Jewish family." Yet Jesus, as a divine effluence, took on the cursed nature of Deuteronomy 27:26, expanding its meaning beyond that relating to the fate of Hebrew criminals (another case of Paul casting his divine Christ according to scriptural sources). One has to be careful about declaring that ideas have very restricted limits and can never undergo evolution and wider application. Casting a glance back to Part One, this is indeed "a failure of imagination."

Galatians 4:4-7

Before going further and introducing a new piece of evidence, let's look at those mines buried at shallow level in the landscape of Galatians 4:4-7. Each one may not have a fatal explosive force in itself, but collectively they raise enough dust and blow a deep enough hole to obscure any historical Jesus.

1. When did God "send his own Son"? Once again, it is uncanny how Paul can consistently fail to use words which would locate Jesus in historical time, let alone his own recent past. "In the fullness of time" is pretty woolly, and in fact probably applies to the idea of the fullness of the time in which God had allowed the Jewish Law to have force. (The NEB opts for this meaning in its "but when the term was completed," referring to the period of enslavement to the Law.) When that term had expired, what arrived? Not Jesus himself, but as Paul has just stated it (3:23 and 25), faith in him. At God's appropriate time, he revealed his Son through apostles like Paul (as it is represented in passages like Galatians 1:16, Romans 16:25-27, Colossians 2:2, 2 Timothy 1:10, Titus 1:3), the Son who is described as a former secret long-hidden.

2. What precisely did God send? "God sent his own Son" may be ambiguous, but verse 6 is not: "To prove that you are sons [lit., because you are sons], God has sent into our hearts the Spirit of his Son..." The latter looks like an enlargement on the previous thought, and both are assigned to the present time, which would make the "sending" of the Son only that of his spirit. The two verbs of 'sending' are identical, and it is the same verb commonly used when speaking of the "sending" of the Holy Spirit, or of spiritual beings such as angels or Wisdom.

3. Who was acting in the present? Consider this succession of ideas through verses 4 to 7:

"God sent his own Son...to purchase freedom for [lit., in order that he might redeem] the subjects of the law, in order that we might attain the status of sons....You are therefore no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then also by God's own act an heir."

Grammatically speaking, there is an ambiguity in the first two phrases, in both English and Greek. "God" is the main subject, and could be said to govern the entire sentence. Thus, it could be God himself who is the subject of the verb "purchase" or it could be the "Son." And yet, that ambiguity is surely resolved by the later phrase. The stated purpose of sending the Son (or his spirit) was to make believers "sons" of God. In verse 7, Paul identifies that result as due to an act of God, not the Son. The sense of the entire passage thus makes God the one who has "redeemed/purchased freedom." So Paul supposedly has God send the Son to earth, but doesn't present him as the one performing the redeeming act while he is there. The only context in which this makes sense is that the Son did not come to earth and live the Gospel events, but that God himself
drawing on Christ's death and rising in a spiritual dimension, at an unspecified time or in a timeless settingis the one who has been responsible for redemption, by revealing Christ and his supernatural activities in the present time and making the resultant benefits available to those who have adopted faith in him, courtesy of Paul's preaching. This is the mode of expression found throughout the epistles.
    Apologetic 'explanations' that since Jesus is God, or acting on God's behalf, it is legitimate for Paul to say that God does everything, are hardly compelling. I suggest that this is not the way the human mind works and does not explain the universal blind eye turned toward Jesus as the primary agent in their own time, which all the early writers seem to suffer from. Such an explanation is simply an apologetic ploy, and a pretty lame one at that.

4. When was Christ "born"? Those two phrases qualifying the Son, "born of woman, born under the Law," are descriptive of the Son, but not necessarily tied to the present 'sending.' (See E. D. Burton, International Critical Commentary, Galatians, p.216f.) They have no necessary temporal relation to the verb "sent" and do not have to be seen as present occurrences. Thus they present no impediment to the scenario outlined in point 3.

5. And what of the word "born" as it is consistently translated? In fact, Paul does not use the normal, everyday word for giving or undergoing birth here, which would be "gennaō". Instead, he uses "ginomai" (as he does in Romans 1:3 in speaking of the Son "coming/arising" from the seed of David). Ginomai has a broad range of definition, as Carrier has pointed out, and "being born" is only one meaning of many. I have suggested that the use of ginomai may be indicative of Paul having something more in mind than simple human birth, but I could go further and say this: If Paul meant that Jesus was born of a human mother, he should have had no reason not to use the verb gennaō, which means just that. Consequently, we can conclude the strong likelihood that by using ginomai, Paul must be referring to something OTHER than birth by a human woman.
    This conclusion is strengthened when we compare Paul's uses of gennaō vs. ginomai throughout his letters. Let's look at the other occasions in the Pauline corpus where birth is referred to:
    - Romans 9:11 - [referring to Rebecca's children] "...but before they were born, when they had as yet done nothing good or ill..." Here Paul uses gennaō.
    - 1 Corinthians 4:15 - "In Christ Jesus I became your father [lit., I gave birth to you] through the gospel." Here, even in a figurative context, Paul uses
gennaō.
    - Galatians 4:23, 24 and 29 - This the Sarah/Hagar allegory discussed above. In the three places in which Paul expresses the idea of birth
even within a declared allegorical contexthe uses gennaō.
    THE ONLY OCCASIONS WHEN HE USES GINOMAI TO REFER TO AN APPARENT 'BIRTH' ARE THOSE TWO REFERENCES TO CHRIST: in Romans 1:3 in being "born of David's seed" and in Galatians 4:4 in being "born of woman/under the law." (For the hymn in Philippians 2, see below.) In the entire corpus of early Christian writings, both inside and outside the New Testament, there is no other case of the usage of "ginomai" to refer to human birth, including that of Jesus. For Paul to make this distinction in terminology must be significant, and must mean something to him. The most compelling conclusion is that in both these cases regarding Christ he was not referring to human birth.
    It is intriguing that, while modern translations opt for the word "born" in rendering the "genomenon" of verse 4, the older King James Version renders it "made of woman, made under the Law," and similarly uses "made" in Romans 1:3, even though it has no compunction about using "born" in translating
gennaō, such as in the allegorical passage about the sons of Abraham later in Galatians 4. Now, I'm not suggesting that King James' translators shared my mythicist views, but might they instinctively have realized that this unusual use of ginomai by Paul in these two places seems to set them apart? I would call attention to Paul's reference to Adam in 1 Corinthians 15:45. The King James has it: "The first man Adam was made [egeneto, from ginomai] a living soul..." Naturally, Adam was never "born" from a woman, so gennaō was not an option, but this and the Galatians 4 use of ginomai suggest that for Paul they are both in the realm of mythology. The very mythological hymn of Philippians 2 also uses ginomai in verse 7: "(KJV)...and was made in the likeness [that pesky "likeness" again] of men." This (as yet unnamed) descending deity undergoes no suggestion of "being born"which term the KJV again avoids, though modern translations often do not. That verse of the hymn also introduces the idea of the descending deity taking on the "form of a slave," a concept in common with the 'enslavement' to the Law implied in Galatians 4. There is a commonality of thought through all this, and it is anything but clearly related to earthly history. Contrast this with the Gospel writers who consistently use gennaō to express birth, including that of Jesus, as in Matthew 2:1: "After Jesus was born (gennaō) in Bethlehem of Judea..." Even John the Baptist, among those "born of woman" in Matthew 11:11 (following Q), undergoes that process courtesy of the verb gennaō. And Luke, of course, follows suit (1:35, 1:57, 7:28).
    In the wider literature, we find a rare use of ginomai to signify "born," but in the vast majority of cases, it is
gennaō. The Septuagint (LXX) has several occurrences of the phrase "born of woman," but to point these out in English (as Christopher Price on the IIDB has done) is irrelevant, since the critical question is: what verb is being used in the Greek? In cases like Job 14:1 and 25:4 or Sirach 10:18, it is gennaō, which only serves to highlight the difference from Galatians 4:4 and lead to the conclusion that Paul's divergence from the norm must mean something. If it is claimed that "born of woman"